[BRUNER247]

Here's one of my thoughts. I recently purchased a fairly large tank to try to breed some more piranha. Its a 8'x4'x30" my thoughts are splitting it into 4 tanks with a common corner in the center of the tank, so basically it would be 4-4'x2' tanks n make it so it could easily be converted to 2-8'x2' tanks if needed. I'm still debating which piranha to go with yet.but ill use Caribe as a example.stock one section with a breeding pair or two of rbp, as the hormones might/could trigger other piranha to spawn also.stock the other 3 sections with Caribe say 4-6 in each section.then run through the triggers/n spawning tricks. Or maybe a Blk rhom in each section.I know 535gal tank is small for rhoms but it just might be big enough till I get my rhom pond built.I know rhoms have only bred a handful of times in the home, but that isn't going to stop me from doing it.although ill probably wait for the pond before I attempt rhoms. I'm really leaning towards Caribe or maybe greyis for the 535gal.everyones thoughts or added ideas would be cool.maybe your thoughts on rbps in same tank to maybe help trigger the others?

[serrasalmus_collector]

That is a fascinating idea. I hope you peruse this and share your occurrences with the piranhas in captivity. I will not lead you away from trying to use reds to trigger the spawning. I will tell you there have been many to have tried to breed P.Ternetzi, and Cariba with breeding reds right in the tank with them; and didn’t have success. There are some very knowledgeable members here and a few that breed both Reds, and S.Maculatus.

The other people that tried to trigger the other Pygocentrus species to spawn with reds breeding in the tank did not share their information here. But the source of the trials is very reliable. Perhaps some of the members here can help and this tactic can be polished to success…

Some of the factors, I think may be missing could be water temperature, increase in dissolved oxygen, dramatic shift in water transparency, along with water chemistry changes. These water chemistry changes may be a very important thing not correct. Because in the wild some piranhas get an increase in PH because of mountains adding sediments buffering and hardening the water then a drop. Some are black water rivers and have a very swift drop. I really like your style and determination to breed piranha species other than reds or macs.

I would document everything from the start of the project. If you don’t have success, and good pre spawning, your data could allow you to duplicate and make subtle changes. I also explore the breeding of different species of piranhas. I have changed my entire experiments to setting up multiple tanks of same species. This way I can confirm particular stimuli yielding a similar result. And best of all, I can make slight changes to the different tanks; saving time with repeating the experiments months later.

Good Luck My friend and Welcome to Piranha Cove.

[BRUNER247]

Ahhh finally a place to call home! Lmao. All the other sites say I'm insane for my thoughts n ideas. Finally a place that I won't get flamed for thinking outside the box.

This post has been edited by BRUNER247: 17 June 2010 - 10:17 PM

[serrasalmus_collector]

Dude that’s silly. When trying to breed a fish with no shared or outlined successful spawning. It’s only logical to think out side the box. There must be well over 100 people to breed reds, and aim for Cariba, Ternetzi, and Piraya to only have failed attempts. With this kind of logic, it’s a good assumption they will not breed like reds.

When I started trying to breed many species of piranhas, I studied how Hiroshima Azuma bred wild reds, and how tetras from the same river system were bred. This gave me a good start on what worked with wild species and a genus somewhat similar to piranhas. I would say it’s pretty safe to say that 70% of the people who have bred reds for years can not breed wild reds. This wild fish is the challenge and what keeps me at it. It’s a difficult job. But all the member here are supportive and very interested the results each member who tries has. The piranha hobby is just that. Hobbies should be enjoyable. Getting ripped on or ridiculed is not a source of enjoyment to many; so it essentially defies the definition of a hobby.

[CombiChrist]

The problem with that other site is, that the reason there seems to be "if I can't do it, it's impossible". That'sthe strength of this forum : the reasoning is turned into "if I can't do, it's not possible under those specific circumstances so as long as I share them accurate, someone else might manage doing it".

Good luck with these attempts and keep us informed. Keep in mind though, if there are differences in waterparameters in the natural environment. If for example you try some species together from different water systems, there might be a need for different waterparameters to get them breeding.

Here's a diagram of the rivers and their naturalparameters to get started :

 waarden.jpg (227.47K)
Number of downloads: 4

[BRUNER247]

but see that's the thing everyones variables are different.just because your method didn't work for your fish, don't mean it won't work with my fish, n likewise what works for me might have a very different effect on your fish.IMO its really knowing your fish, what signs to look for, colors they change ect if you find something that starts to work you need to keep building on that. Idk I guess maybe I spend to much time in front of my tanks? As for breeding multiple piranhas from different water types I'd go with say Caribe or greyis water type as everyone know rbp will spawn in almost any type of water. Also what if 3 of the 4 sections had spawning rbp in them n only one section with Caribe to really flood the tank with hormons?

[BRUNER247]

BRUNER247, on 18 June 2010 - 03:21 AM, said:

but see that's the thing everyones variables are different.just because your method didn't work for your fish, don't mean it won't work with my fish, n likewise what works for me might have a very different effect on your fish.IMO its really knowing your fish, what signs to look for, colors they change ect if you find something that starts to work you need to keep building on that. Idk I guess maybe I spend to much time in front of my tanks? As for breeding multiple piranhas from different water types I'd go with say Caribe or greyis water type as everyone know rbp will spawn in almost any type of water. Also what if 3 of the 4 sections had spawning rbp in them n only one section with Caribe to really flood the tank with hormons?

Also with the other sites they're more into keeping the fish instead of breeding the fish.rbp(the most docile of piranha) get fairly aggressive during spawning,so to me it only makes sense that more aggressive piranha will be even more aggressive during spawning(natures way of selecting the strong to reproduce,weeds out the weak)IMO if your keeping piranha your not looking for signs or signal your not trying different methods to induce spawning, n most likely don't know what to look for if they are showing signs of wanting or trying to spawn.they see 2 fish wanting to eat each other where me I'm trying/wanting to spawn them might see some pre-spawn behavior.case in point JP80911 videos with his 2 rhoms in a split tank. To me I saw a lot of pre-spawning behavior when said I was crazy n they wanted to eat each other n that I'm insane.was they showing spawning signs, I think so. Could they have killed each other if that divider was pulled, maybe, maybe not.but I think with the right eye watching them n pulling that divider at the right time might of produced a spawning. there's so much that's unknown about some of these piranha n spawning that people just assume it can't be done without even trying because it didn't work for him. Almost all predator fish get rough during spawning,even oscars can n will kill their mate!my male killed my female last week during some pre-spawn fighting.(very sad day!).these fish can be & will be bred in home aquariums its just a matter of time before someone gets the right combination to the lock n the door swings open!

[CombiChrist]

Everyones variables are different, but that doesn't mean that much when no one accomplished breeding most species.
Looking from a scientific reasoning, I'm not saying there is a golden rule that will work for all specimen, but there most likely will be a guideline that will work for the majority of the specimen, for that's a simple evolutionary result.
When the environment changes, the species adapt. They do not do that one by one, but as a species. Hence my belief in a guideline effective for the majority.

"Really knowing your fish" is something I'm never saying. Reason for that is that all we can do is observe a specimen and try to give an interpreation of those observations. We do that with humans also and what I 've learned most, is that in most cases our interpretation is wrong. With humans, we have the option to ask them if our interpretations were correct (and therefore to learn that often, we're not) but in fish we just have to rely on ourselves. Take for example the discussions on how much space a single specimen needs. Some say overstock is better, because that's their interpretation of what they observe.
Others say "the more, the better", because that's what they observe.
What it comes down to in "knowing a fish", is that it's based on an assumption and therefore, scientifically invalid.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to tell you you're wrong or what soever, but just explaning the way I look at things, to make sure we both understand the differences in the way we approach the subject. I like the scientific view most, whilemost others (including you I think?) prefer their experiences.

But back to your post.
You got me thinking about hormones. I'm not aware of fish actually having sexual hormones. They have some glands, but that's mostly for regulating what in humans is known as "the minor brains".
Fish do use pheromones though. Piranhas use a fear pheromone to warn others for other predators, and another hormone to attrackt others. In spawning, this pheromone is released.
I'm not sure though that it will trigger other species, for it's most likely a pheromone only triggering the same species (evolution, to avoid interbreeding what is not a common behavior in any species untill mankind decides he forces it upon them).

But nevertheless it might be an interesting thing to try and see what happens. Do us all the favor and document the experiments, like you said without some out-of-the-box documenting, the learning process stops...
Good luck with the experiments, I'll keep reading them

[DeepFriedIctalurus]

As far as splitting the tank in 2 with spawning reds on one side potentially influencing the caribe to spawn on the other end, I consider that largely unexplored route to be a fantastic idea!


On the other hand, splitting the tank 4-ways sounds like more trouble than it's worth though.

[hris]

good luck with the experimnents.caribe spawning will be great.
honestly though,if i had that large a tank,i wouldnt split it,forget breeding and go with an awesome display tank,but thats just me..
keep us updated.

[DeepFriedIctalurus]

hris, on 19 July 2010 - 01:08 PM, said:

honestly though,if i had that large a tank,i wouldnt split it,forget breeding and go with an awesome display tank,but thats just me..

Fill that with caribe or piraya and connect it to a tank of spawning reds with a single large filtration unit, and you get the best of both worlds!

[BRUNER247]

The more I think about this the more I think pygos are part of the triggers for serras.what's some of the main triggers? Rain, flooding, new growth, life (food).rhoms form loose shoals n follow rbp around at the same time rbp are spawning.why? So they can spawn with them so their fry n babies hatch n blend in with their host shoal for food n protection.this is why the look so much like pygos while they're babies, this is why they grow fast like rbp n cariba till around 5-6",to further blend in with their hosts.anyone have any thoughts on this?